123 | Why Ovulation Matters with Liane Moccia

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Hi there, welcome to In the Clinic with Camille. My name is Camille Freeman

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and this podcast is for herbalists and nutritionists who are in clinical practice.

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Today, I'm really excited to present to you a conversation that I had recently

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with Leanne Mocha regarding ovulation and how we ask clients about ovulation and why it matters.

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Even when a client isn't trying to conceive, why would we still want to think

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about ovulation? What does it tell us?

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The reason that I'm sharing this conversation with you right now is that Leanne

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and I are co-teaching a menstrual health intensive that is starting really soon.

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And so I thought it would be a nice time to present to you just a little bit

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of information, kind of like a teaser of some of the things that might be in

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the class, and to help you get to know Leanne a little bit.

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So in case you're not already familiar with Leanne, she is a registered herbalist.

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She specializes in fertility and preconception planning.

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She is the author of the herbal fertility handbook which came out in 2025 and leanne,

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although she does focus on fertility she is just a wealth of information regarding

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the menstrual cycle reproductive health and how we think about menstrual cycle

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as part of overall health,

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and so when we teach together i really appreciate how leanne dives into the

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science but also has a very very practical lens through which she sees everything

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so if you want to learn more about leanne I'll put a link to her website, just leanemocha.com.

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We'll put that in the show notes as well as the link to Leanne's book and the

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link to sign up for the Menstrual Health Intensive if you would like to join

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us. We'd love to have you. All right, I hope you enjoy this conversation,

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and I'll talk to you really soon.

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All right, y'all. I am delighted to be joined by my colleague and collaborator,

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Leanne Mucha, here today.

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And we wanted to share some information about a specific question related to

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menstrual health, which some of you may have on your intake form,

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which is, are you ovulating?

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Are you ovulating regularly? We wanted to dive into that because it seems like

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such a small, simple question, but actually there's a lot of nuance in it.

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Leanne, do you want to start us off and just talk about how you asked this question?

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Is it on your intake? Do you ask it in person?

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Give us the overview here. Yes. Yeah. So this is such a great question and it

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is definitely something that has evolved over the years. It is on my intake

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and it is something I talk about in person.

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And at first glance, it seems like such an easy question to answer. Are you ovulating?

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But what I found is that, first of all, it gives us a lot of information as a practitioner.

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If a person is aware of their ovulation and then can provide information about

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its timing and how they experience it. So there is important information there.

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So I think it's worth knowing and asking.

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But what I've learned over the years is that asking the question in certain

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ways can sometimes be a little bit confusing to people and they don't always know what we're asking.

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And often, a lot of times people have never even really thought about if they

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notice if they're ovulating. Sometimes they're relying on external factors like

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an LH strip, which is fine.

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But just having the conversation, there's so much information that can come

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out of asking the question, which is, you know, are they noticing it?

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And how are they testing for it? And what are those results?

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And then what is the data? So there's three levels of information there.

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Yes, absolutely. And I think over the years, I also have this question on my

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intake form, and I feel like I've gotten the full gamut of,

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things, responses to it, from everything from I have no idea to,

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you know, per my Mira device, I ovulated on day, you know, 14.5 this cycle and

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day, you know, XYZ on the last cycle.

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They have complete data for six or 12 cycles and everything in the middle.

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And it does provide a lot of information.

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So one question I have for you is, it's obvious why we might want to know this

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in the context of fertility.

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But for people who are not trying to get pregnant, this is not on their radar

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right now, they're not interested, what have you, why would we still want to know?

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Right. Why would we still want to ask this question? Yes. And I do still want to know.

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And a lot of people will, if they're not trying to conceive,

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will actually say, well, I haven't really thought about it because I'm not trying

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to get pregnant, so why would I care?

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And it's really just a really important part of their cycle.

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So we want to know if a person who is supposed to be cycling or has a history

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of cycling, we want to know if that's still happening for them.

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And we want to know if it's the regularity of it, the length of it.

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It's an indicator of other health and hormonal things that are happening in their body.

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So, I mean, for me, it's as important as all of the other vital signs that are

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on my intake form around digestion and immune health and, you know,

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all the other things I'm asking about.

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The menstrual cycle is just another part of that that is really important to me.

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Yes, I completely agree. A lot of times, especially people who are not trying

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to get pregnant and have never tried to get pregnant.

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Or it happened organically for them, they never really had to think about it.

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A lot of folks haven't been taught in, you know, health class or body literacy

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along the way, and so they don't necessarily know how to identify if they're

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ovulating, and it just hasn't been relevant.

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But in reality, if we start to understand ovulation and where it is in the cycle,

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we can just have so much information about like, okay, what's going on with

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FSH? What's going on with estradiol? What's going on with progesterone?

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We can put the pieces together and try to get to the bottom of other factors

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that may be affecting the menstrual cycle and or health as a whole.

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So I do think it's, you know, the nice thing about ovulation is that there are,

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for most people, there are lots of signs, external signs.

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Like you don't, you can use LH strips or, you know, some of these fancier devices

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and this, that, and the other, but also you can just completely for free by

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observing your body and your cervical fluid and.

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Your energy and the way that you're feeling and so forth.

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You can also identify it there. And I think that having that understanding is

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it's a critical part of body literacy. And so I think that's a part of it,

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too. Right. And I think it's really empowering.

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I do think when some people, they don't understand or haven't been taught,

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you've mentioned body literacy, about something like cervical fluid,

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which is just something that can be confusing if it hasn't been taught or discussed.

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I've certainly had people think it was abnormal or, you know, signs of an infection.

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And then after we've talked about it more, it's, you know, they understand it's

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a sign of their, possibly a sign of their building estrogen levels and ovulation

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occurring within that window, which is, I think, really empowering and helpful,

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to people to understand that.

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Yes, absolutely. I also think we don't necessarily think about this when we're,

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you know, in the throes of the menstrual years, but as you get closer to perimenopause,

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I also think having an understanding of,

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am I ovulating and what's happening with my ovulation, it gives you kind of

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a baseline to compare as things start to get a little wonky on the far end of the menstrual years.

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You kind of understand, oh, things are starting to change. In what ways?

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It does give you some important information at that time frame as well.

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And it's nice if you have that baseline from the kind of steadier menstrual years to compare it to.

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Right. And I don't think it has to be an either or, but I do see a trend to

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people wanting to do more testing in the perimenopausal years.

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And that may be the right fit for some people. But I think if we have a lot

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more conversations about what's, you know, body literacy and what you can observe, it may,

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potentially reduce the need to have some of this other more expensive testing to see what's going on.

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Absolutely. I know we could do a whole other podcast episode about testing and

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hearing menopause because that's like its own, its own can of worms.

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It's an interesting one too.

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Yeah. So maybe it would be helpful for people who are listening.

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Are there some common follow-up questions that you might ask around ovulation,

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in an intake, for example? Like, what are some other things that you might ask?

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Let's say somebody said, you say, are you ovulating?

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And they put, like, I think so, or maybe.

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What are you going to then dig into? Definitely digging into what are the signs

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and symptoms that you experience, and around what day of the month do you experience them.

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So I'm looking for things like cervical fluid, energy levels,

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change in libido, even things like changes in acne, skin, what are they experiencing

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in their skin, their sleep patterns.

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Some people are testing and monitoring their basal body temperature or just

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temperature in general.

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And I like to sort of get that information if it's available because in some

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cases, people may have the rise of estrogen and might be experiencing some signs of ovulation coming,

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but we can't really confirm if it happened or not unless we have some other pieces of information.

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And looking at a rise in temperature is another way to look at that.

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If a person is also tracking their entire cycle, that can be helpful.

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So the very first day of their period to the first day of the next period and

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defining that for people. Sometimes I will say on my intake form, how long is your cycle?

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And I'm looking for that, you know, period to period and I'll get three to four days.

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And I realized that that has been misinterpreted as how long are you menstruating for?

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So I think the more clear we, and so now in my intake form, I give examples and say, you know,

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exactly what I'm looking for, because I think it is something that,

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you know, the more we ask directly and give examples of what we're looking for,

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we're more likely to get accurate answers.

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Absolutely. And those are these are the lessons that you learn the hard way.

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Yes. You know, you're like, Oh, all right, that's not what I was thinking was

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going to happen here. And obviously, I need to be more clear.

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I know you have another example of.

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Of asking a question in a way that didn't wind up being very clear.

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Do you want to share that one just because it's, it's at least sort of related.

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And I think it's a great example for other people to hear too.

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Yes. This was in the earlier days when my intake forms weren't separated out

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by if then answers. So now I use an electronic form. So if a person,

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you know, puts in certain information, they won't be asked all the same questions,

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but this was predates that.

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So the person, the question was, have you experienced or do you experience painful periods?

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And the person responded, yes. And when we dug into it, this turns out to be

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a person who doesn't menstruate, doesn't ovulate. It's not part of his physiology.

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He was, you know, male gender.

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And he said, yes, I have painful periods. And when I asked him to explain that

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more, he said, well, when my mother passed away, it was a very painful period for me.

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And I realized with like such empathy, like, wow, you know, this was a very unclear question.

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This is not on him that he answered it incorrectly. I need to reword this.

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And it doesn't happen now again because of the way the intakes flow.

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But just a great example of how asking a general question like,

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do you have painful periods, could be misunderstood depending on how clear you are with it.

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Yes, absolutely. I think it's such a great example of how you just live and

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learn as you go through these yeah all right that one is on me yes.

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But it was still very helpful information because then we talked about how he

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was feeling with the passing of his mother and you know nervous system support and processing and i

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you know he even said something to me like geez i don't think anyone's ever

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asked me that before and i thought i'm like i really can't take credit for having

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asked you that because i didn't really but let's talk about it,

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yeah sure since it came up let's go there,

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Before we wrap up here, I also just, additional thought I had was that when

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we're talking more about ovulation, it also, as you mentioned,

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if we put it in the context of how long is your overall cycle,

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we really do need that information about ovulation to see if the luteal phase

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is, you know, see how long the luteal phase is and to kind of place any kind

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of PMS or PMDD on the timeline.

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It is sort of an important marker on our menstrual timeline.

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And so I think it's something that maybe people don't dive into enough if they're

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not trying to conceive or their client isn't trying to conceive.

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But in reality, there's a lot we can do with that information when we're supporting

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somebody around overall health or menstrual health.

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Yes, absolutely. I feel like, again, as a timeline within the menstrual cycle,

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if you are thinking about or asking about the menstrual cycle in any way,

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the ovulation and when we think it's happening is just critical to the full picture.

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Yes, absolutely. And I'm actually, I'm a big fan of having the question on the

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intake form and then asking into it later. So I really just have, are you ovulating?

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And then if so, how do you know?

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And then whatever they put there, I don't have follow-up questions on my intake

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form. I just want to go, I want to talk it through.

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In person. So that's kind of how I handle it. Because I'm like,

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I know we're going to talk about it. So I don't need to bother asking multiple

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questions here because I just, I want to at least get the basics down and then

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we'll dive into it together.

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And getting some basics down in a way where the person can look it up.

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Because if they are tracking in any way, I'd rather them have the time to think,

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you know, and pull up their data and enter it than in our intake feel pressure

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to pull it up on their app and try to find it while we're talking.

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Exactly. Yes, it's one of those things that's just easier to do in the comfort

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of your own home with an abundance of time, for sure.

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So one of the reasons that Leanne and I have been thinking about this and talking

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about it so much is that we are opening a brand new course.

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It's a menstrual health intensive.

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And if you're interested in diving into a lot more physiology and.

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Details about the menstrual cycle, we would love for you to join us.

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Leanne, do you want to say anything about the course or what's interesting about

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it, what's special about it, why somebody might want to join us as opposed to

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another type of training or reading a book about this or something like that? Yes.

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Yeah, I'm really enjoying the course and pulling all this information together.

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It's deeply rooted in physiology, which I think when we're talking about the

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menstrual cycle is so important because,

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if you understand the physiology behind what's happening, whether it's painful

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periods or PMOS or, you know, any of the things we're going to talk about,

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hypothalamic amenorrhea, if you understand the physiology behind what's happening,

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you can pull from all of your clinical experience and teaching and knowledge

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to think about how you want to support that person.

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And we do get into that in the course, but it's so rooted in physiology that

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I think it could be really helpful,

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for anyone who works with menstruating people because, you know,

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physiology is something that sometimes we don't, you know, we learned it so

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long ago, you don't remember it, or you see it through a different lens.

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Even as a practitioner who does this every day, as I'm pulling things up and

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refreshing my own knowledge of the physiology, I'm remembering things in a new

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way and like, oh, right, that makes so much sense.

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And, you know, it gets exciting to think about how we can support people,

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you know, herbally or nutritionally through these things.

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Exactly. And I think that is one of the most interesting parts about this course

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is that we're not trying to tell you, oh, here's the formula for dysmenorrhea.

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Here's the formula for PMS or PMDD.

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What we're really trying to say is here's what we know about these things from

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a physiological perspective, what the data tells us in some general traditional perspectives. is.

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But there's enough room in that for people to, as you said, to tailor it to

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your own favored methods or herbs, whether you do an energetic model or you

00:15:55.187 --> 00:15:58.033
have a more kind of Western herbal model or whatever you have.

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I think having this understanding of the physiology allows you to take it and

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run with it in ways where you're like, oh, I've thought this through.

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Here are some herbs or strategies that do these things. Let me try them with

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these individual people.

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Something else that's new, Leanne and I have taught together multiple times,

00:16:16.897 --> 00:16:20.537
but this year we're having a new component, which is we are doing case observation

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groups as part of the class.

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So we're going to be learning about things in a very kind of academic, cerebral way.

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We have a live class every week to ask questions and things like that,

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but also we're going to be working on cases, real people who are looking for

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help around menstrual health.

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We're going to do two case groups where we have a client, we're going to interview

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the client, and we're going to work together on coming up with a formula for them, a plan for them.

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So I think this is going to really help people solidify the information.

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I'm really excited about getting to do that together.

00:16:50.736 --> 00:16:54.942
Yes, absolutely. Amazing. So if anybody wants to join us, we would love to have you.

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The info is in the show notes of how to sign up.

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And even if you're listening to this way after the fact, we do make the classes

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available later as an evergreen model. So if you can't come live,

00:17:05.482 --> 00:17:08.432
still welcome to sign up. We would love to have you go through the asynchronous

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version if you're listening to this in the future.

00:17:11.455 --> 00:17:14.732
All right, Leanne, thank you so much for joining me to talk a little bit about

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ovulation. I will see you in the class, hopefully with lots of lovely folks

00:17:20.392 --> 00:17:23.297
joining us, and I really appreciate you taking the time to be here.

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Yes, I can't wait. Thank you.