94 | Herbal Approaches to Gut Health: A Conversation with Maria Noël Groves

0:00 Welcome to In the Clinic with Camille. My name is Camille Freeman. I'm an herbalist and nutritionist, and in this podcast, I share little tips and tidbits that might be helpful for other practitioners. Today, I'm really excited to bring to you a short interview with someone who I suspect needs no introduction, and that is Maria Noel-Groves. Maria is a clinical herbalist. She runs Wintergreen Botanicals, which is located in New Hampshire, and she does classes, consultations, and writing. And in particular she's the author of multiple award-winning best-selling books including Body Into Balance, Grow Your Own Herbal Remedies, Herbal Remedies for Sleep, and her new book which is Herbal Gut Health and that is the topic of our discussion today.

0:41 We're going to put the link to Maria's work at wintergreenbotanicals.com in the show notes as well as the link to pre-order her new book if you're listening to this before January 2026 and if you're listening to it after January 2026, you can purchase a copy and receive it almost right away. So without any further ramblings on my part, let's dive into my interview with Maria about herbal gut health. Hey, I am just so excited to have Maria Noel-Grobes here to do a little interview and to talk to us about the latest book that is coming out really soon. Maria, can you just tell us, in a nutshell, what is special about this book?

1:23 Sure. And also, of course, thank you so much for having me back. It's always an absolute honor. And I love your podcast. I think I've listened to all of them, or almost all of them. So it's an honor to be here. And so in a nutshell, the book, you know, many people might already be familiar with my book, Body Into Balance. And the digestive chapter was already the biggest chapter in the book. And so this book explores that topic, but goes much, much deeper into it. So much like we do in Body Into Balance, it's how, you know, what is the digestive system? How does it work? How does it get out of balance? And then what kinds of herbs and lifestyle approaches can we turn to to help bring it back into balance?

2:04 But we go much deeper into each aspect of that as well as a lot more into the, it's essentially divided in my mind in two major sections. And that first section of the herbal and body system part of it is on stimulating digestion and enhancing the body's ability to absorb nutrients and have digestive juices and healthy motility and all of that. And then in the second, you know, kind of big chunk of it is on the gut healing process. So soothing and promoting healthy integrity of tissue, especially if there is, you know, damage, inflammation, just lack of integrity, leakiness, that kind of thing. Yeah.

2:47 Exploring the situations, the patterns, and then our herbs and recipes that tend to be really helpful. And so those are two of the big components of the book. But we do have a lot of overarching concepts towards the beginning. And then we dive into other aspects like food allergies and clinical patterns of assessment and all sorts of other details there. But it does go a lot deeper, I'd say that there's probably at least, I have not checked into it, but maybe three or four times, if not more content than we get into in the, or at least get into in greater detail versus the Body Into Balance book.

3:27 So it was really exciting. This is one of the books that I pitched to the publishers because I just feel like my thoughts on gut health have evolved quite a bit since I first wrote that book. It's such a huge part of my own clinical practice and just at large, the world and also in the United States where I mainly practice, we see so many people who have disordered digestion and it seems like it's getting worse, not better as a general rule. And there really isn't much out there currently that explores that, especially from an herbal perspective. And so I was very excited to have the opportunity to dive in deeper into the topic and put all of this together. So that's kind of the basic synopsis of what's in there, But it is both a guide for the layperson.

4:13 It's probably a little bit more of like an intermediate, if you will, maybe intermediate to a semi-advanced. And it also should be a pretty great resource for the practitioner to refer to as they're working with things as well. So it's a little bit higher level than just an everyday popular press, but it is geared towards both those communities. Yeah, and I was lucky enough to get an advance copy of the books. I've already seen it. And I have to say that the design is gorgeous. I think all of your books are beautiful, but this one in particular, I think, is so pleasing to just hold and read. I'm usually a big e-book fan, but I actually think this one I prefer in hard copy because it's so pretty.

4:54 And, you know, one of the things that I do think is nice as a practitioner, I so agree that almost everything eventually makes its way back to gut health, or at least we need to start there. And I find this even after 20 plus years of practice, there's herbs where I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot about, you know, I learned about it and I thought about it sort of fell out of favor in my practice. And reading books like this and just looking at the ways that you formulate or some of the herbs that I just, for whatever reason, haven't been using very much lately, have worked their way back into my practice because it resurfaced. So it's really fun to get. I agree. It feels like it's more than a surface level. And I was able to understand rationale that how things were put together in your book.

5:40 That was really helpful for my own practice. I really appreciate that. It is funny how we as herbalists, I could hear somebody's top five herbs for something and inevitably, at least one, sometimes many, I'll be like, wow, I like don't even use that herb or I hardly ever use that herb. And with gut health, there are so many options for herbs. So I really focus most on the ones that are my favorites that I work with regularly. But then I'll see somebody else's list. I'm like, oh yeah, I don't use it. I mean, no yarrow's in there but I don't work with it that much because I'm allergic to it and even handling it, I will have allergic responses to it. So it just has never been a big part of my own practice but yet somebody else, it might be they're the herbs. I'm kind of curious for you, like what, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, like what was the herb or two that you got reacquainted with?

6:30 Well, I mean, there's a lot of them. Even for me, sometimes things as basic as like, oh, calendula. I mean, I think of it in a certain light, but then you're like, oh, yeah, there is this whole other side to it that's not been part of the way that I'm conceptualizing it, even though, of course, I was trained and I learned about it in this light. But then, you know, we think of it in different ways. So that's, for example, just like not that it's not part of my practice, but it just resurfaces. and go, yeah, such a lovely, such a lovely addition in so many ways. So, okay, this is a relatively short podcast, so how do we really dive into your brain for practitioners in terms of this book?

7:15 And one of the things that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about was the format of herbs, because we talked about teas in particular for GI health. And I wondered if you wanted to say any words about tea as a method of supporting gut health versus extracts or capsules or powders or any of the other types of things we might be working with. Yeah. And I am, you know, as an herbalist, I love tinctures. I do occasionally, you know, take or recommend pills and powders. But when it comes to gut health, teas really have a huge advantage. I mean, we love teas as herbalists in general. They're beneficial for so many different concerns. But when it comes to gut health, we have a variety of benefits. One is that it's very good at extracting pretty much all the constituents that we might want to get out of the majority of the digestive support herbs out there.

8:04 I might not do a tea of a really super duper bitter herb because that might not be very palatable, but it would still work. It just might be so bitter you want to throw up. But for most of our pleasant enough tasting herbs and our gut healing herbs, and especially the mucilaginous herbs that really emphasize water extract, I have seen mucilaginous herbs literally repel alcohol when somebody else decided to make a tincture and called me in for support because it had formed this ball in the middle of the jar, literally trying to repel all the alcohol around it. So mucilage, which is one of our key supportive constituents when it comes to soothing and moistening the gut, helping with gut healing and irritations and all of that, it really loves water.

8:53 And so tea is a very natural way to extract that. But it also works great for aromatics. It works great for many different constituents. Another big thing is, especially for somebody who has a digestive system that's irritated or inflamed, or they're having a lot of burning-type symptoms, and hopefully they already know what it is, they know it's not something that's really dangerous that needs to be addressed, and they're just looking at some herbal supports, they will often respond very poorly to alcohol extracts, even if they're taking the alcohol extract for a completely different reason, like to help with sleep or stress. And so while they could possibly take a pill or they could possibly take a glycerin extract, when it comes to the herbs that we deliver for gut health.

9:35 Oftentimes they extract even better and deliver really nicely in that water extract. And so we can get a lot out of a lot of plants. We can deliver it in a very tolerable fashion for folks who have GI irritation or other GI things. And we're coming into such contact with it all the way down the pipe. So before you even put the tea in your mouth, you're inhaling it. And then also while it's in your mouth, you're inhaling the aromas. So we'll start to get some benefits for the digestive system right there to really engage it. Also engaging the nervous system, which is very important for gut health. And then it's coming into contact all the way down the esophagus into the stomach. And eventually the digestive system will break down some of those constituents, but they still have an impact throughout the whole digestive tract.

10:22 And if you're sipping a nice big pot of tea throughout the day, it's a constant exposure versus a quick one-and-done kind of remedy. And so that really helps, especially with some of the more long-term chronic kinds of scenarios. Yes, I love that. I really love that point about how... The difference between sipping on it throughout the day versus, oh, I'm going to have a shot of tincture in the morning and the night. It's even at the same equivalent dose. I feel like it's a little bit of a different experience. I also find tea is just so much more affordable for people. I find that a lot of people are underdosing extract and not getting what I consider to be a therapeutic range.

11:06 And then you realize like, oh, if you're really trying to get a couple grams are more on board of extract, that's pretty pricey. Yes, yes, for sure. And also there's that ritual to the tea too. There is an intention and a ritual to like making tea, especially a loose herb tea, especially one that maybe you actually enjoy a little bit in addition to it, providing some healing properties that you notice right away and then more that build over time that it becomes a really joyful and affirming part of somebody's day to be making that tea and saying, I'm doing this kind of for my health, and I'm connecting with these plants. Yeah, I think that the ritual component of it is underappreciated and, Important. It's important, too. So I'm wondering if there are, if you have any thoughts on how we as practitioners might work with your book.

12:01 So for example, like you said, it is something that maybe clients would have and some of our maybe more engaged or advanced clients might be a great referral or reference for them to say, hey, you might want to pick up this book. But I also think it's something that practitioners could benefit from having on our shelves. And short of sitting down and reading it through top to bottom, which is, of course, lovely to do. But, you know, once it gets added to the shelf, I see you have your big bookshelf behind you and I do mine over there. But at what point might a practitioner pull this book off the shelf and be like, oh, OK, let me look through here and just see what Maria has to say? Well, if they already kind of have the basics down, I'd say that some areas where they might really enjoy it as a reference. One is the recipes.

12:45 So there are quite a few recipes in the book, and they're organized with the herbs and with the themes. And there is a list of the recipes somewhere in the book, so you can see them all at a glance. And then there is also towards the end, there are the protocol points, if you will, for different common health concerns. And then they'll refer back to the other areas of the book for more detail. So if you're looking for support for somebody who's dealing with SIBO or reflux or, you know, those are all really big topics that you can't really summarize in half a page, but it'll give you a couple of the highlights. And then from there, you can go to the bigger section for more details. Exactly. I feel like sometimes we get stuck in our own little avenues of, okay, here's how I might handle IBS or whatever GERD, etc.

13:33 And I find it really is helpful to open up some books and just look through and see, oh, okay, here's some other ideas. In particular, if you've had a client and you've tried some of your usuals and you're not, getting the results that you were thinking you might be getting, sometimes you can look through a book like this in particular, especially with the different formulas, combinations, recipes, or some of the more systems-based approach to like, oh, here's some of the things that are going on, and maybe get some ideas beyond what would naturally come to you on your own. So I think That's a great suggestion. And I will say, too, sorry, also in those profiles there, which can be really helpful for the layperson and for maybe like the new-ish clinician who's not always on point for red flags.

14:22 With each of those sections, there is a little bit on like, what are some signs and symptoms, that somebody should really go to the doctor, giving a little bit of context in that for both just being good to get it checked as well as, hey, this is potentially something that somebody might need to go to the ER immediately for. Because I think sometimes we try to just jump in and do everything with herbs. And sometimes we need to take a step back and make sure that there's not something more acutely dangerous that needs to be identified or addressed first. Yeah, well, that's so funny, because that was what I was going to say, too, which is as we wrap up, I'm wondering if you could just give a quick overview of, okay, here are some of the things that, where in your experience, herbs are really wonderful place to at least start.

15:08 And what are some of the things where you're like, you know what, let's get at least somebody else on the medical team involved, or a little bit more urgent care. Can you just give us some examples of things that might fall into those categories? Yeah, I'd say first off, if the symptoms are kind of more subtle. Just kind of annoying, but not really problematic. And if they're responding very well to the herbs and seem to be either resolved or resolving promptly, that's usually a pretty good sign. But if somebody is taking herbs for something that's kind of even mild to moderate and it's just not working or it helps a little but not really and the issue is still going on, it's a good idea to get that checked.

15:50 Even something as simple as reflux, which is very common and often very responsive to herbs and natural therapies alone, not always, but oftentimes. But if it's not being addressed, if it's not going away, that is dangerous. It can lead to esophageal cancer. We have a friend who passed from that because they had it and the doctors were just ignoring that as a symptom, this ongoing reflux. And so this is the tricky thing with digestive things is they can be refluxed. Not that big of an issue and something you could definitely self-treat for. And then sometimes symptoms that are very similar or continuing could actually be quite dangerous.

16:30 Another example would be if somebody's in really severe acute pain. Now, certainly gas pain can be not that serious at all and still express pretty intensely for some people in certain moments. But example that I have from my own sort of family stories is somebody who was suddenly in just extreme, extreme pain, but they also like couldn't pass gas. Couldn't have a bowel movement. They were, you know, really nauseous and vomiting. Like this person ended up having a bowel obstruction. It was somebody who already had Crohn's disease and had a tendency because of the way that their colon had mutated from everything from the disease to get bowel obstructions really easily.

17:11 And so that's not the time to go pick up a cup of dandelion tea and say, oh, bitters will help my bowels move. Like that person needed to go to the hospital immediately. Bleeding, there's a lot of bleeding. Ulcers, you know, they may need to have conventional treatment because those can also sometimes get dangerous, even if they are also potentially responsive to herbs. So, you know, I know Jim McDonald has some saying like, there's a lot of blood. It's probably a good idea to go get that checked. You know, it's not like normal menses or something like that. Hormones are coming out of places it shouldn't come out of. It's probably good to check the doctor. Fevers, especially when they're associated with digestive things that aren't just a basic, you know, stomach flu, probably a good idea to get checked.

17:57 So there are a lot of different scenarios that can be pretty helpful there. That is not an exhaustive list. So I do cover quite a bit of that throughout the book in general, but especially when we get into specific health concerns. Yeah. And I, you know, I'm always a big fan of saying, if there's any doubt, it makes sense to just check in with a PCP or another provider. And maybe they'll just say, oh, yeah, nothing we can do about it, but we've ruled out anything serious. And then great, you can carry on with your herbal recommendations and move forward with that. But sometimes it's nice just to have that peace of mind of like, OK, well, we've ruled out anything more serious.

18:40 And a lot of the things you're talking about, too, we can usually continue on with herbs, even if people do need some other types of care as well. Yes. Yeah. It's always a good way to know what you're dealing with and to just get things checked out. And a lot of times the doctors will just say, you know, they'll run a bunch of tests and be like, yeah, we don't know. Here's a proton pump inhibitor. And if they give you that answer, then, you know, probably it's safe to start seeking out holistic approaches with, you know, whether you're self-treating or you're going and working with a practitioner or in this case, a lot of folks here are doing the practitioner work themselves. So, yeah, it really, it can be really tricky, but it's good to get the colonoscopy, to get the check, to just make sure there's not something like cancer or inflammatory bowel disease or a need for surgery or something.

19:32 Pathogen, you know, some kind of parasite that needs to be dealt with. I'm not big into parasites, but sometimes, you know, people go to other countries and they pick up a parasite and they may, of course, some conventional treatment might be appropriate. It has absolutely happened to people in my practice, for sure. So, y'all, the book comes out on the 13th of January. You can pre-order it. And I have to say that, When you think about the time and effort and research that goes into a book like this, you know, not to mention just your time writing the book, but also the many years of clinical practice that inform it and your own education.

20:12 And then all of the editing and everything. It is in some ways just a miracle that people can buy this book for such an affordable price because it's just like, there's so much education to be had in a book like this, especially for people who want to refresh or maybe nutritionists who are looking to get started with herbs or dive a little bit deeper. They feel like this is an excellent book for that category of folks and for our herbalists who want to get a little bit more up to date or dive into maybe there's certain topics in the book that you didn't fully cover in your training or that you refresh on. So anyway, I encourage people to get a copy. And like I said, normally I'm like ebook, hard book, whatever, but this one is so pretty.

20:57 I'm just going to put a little plug in for the hard copy just in case anybody wants my opinion. So Maria, I know the book can be ordered wherever. It's in all the places. But do you want to say anything else about your classes for the upcoming year? If people want to continue learning with you and the book isn't enough, or they want to learn about different topics, how can they do that? Sure. And I do want to give a shout out as well to Story Publishing team because they are why the book is so beautiful. But that is why I work with them is because they're so great at making beautiful, polished, and affordable books. And so that's one of the things I really love about working with that team and also my teachers because, you know, a lot of this comes through my own experience, but it also comes through teachers and research and all of that as well.

21:44 But as far as classes, I do a couple different series. So I have my home herbalist series that I run live stream every year. That's just kind of the foundational. And I do periodically an intermediate beyond the home herbalist series. Those are available on demand also anytime, but probably your listeners will be more interested in my advanced series. And what I've been doing lately is I have the full advanced series available on demand, and then I'll focus in on a module each year. Kind of got that inspiration from your model, but different topics. And so this year in 2026, so I guess next year or when we're recording this, but in 2026, I'm going to be focusing in on clinical and assessment skills.

22:25 And I'm still putting together the lineup, but it should be releasing also around January for registration and happening in like spring and fall, most likely via live stream. And that is going to be talking about, you know, just clinical assessment skills as well as things like reading lab work and or interpreting, you know, we can't diagnose, but getting clues for patterns from lab work. We'll have some really great guest teachers as well. We'll be looking at signs of the body, signs of the fingernails, looking at tongue assessment, and all of that kind of concept, as well as working with complicated clients, some of our more unusual, complicated health concerns that often walk into herbalist stores, and different ways to approach that. And so I'm super excited.

23:12 I'll be nailing down guest speakers pretty soon. And so it'll be a combination of some classes taught by me and some classes taught by other colleagues throughout the community. So that should be a lot of fun. And the information will be forthcoming around January for that. So folks can sign up on my mailing list if they want to or just check back in on my website. And both of those are available through wintergreenbotanicals.com. Great. And we will put that as well as to the book in the show notes in case that makes it easier for people. All right. Well, Maria, first of all, thank you so much for writing this book, because I know it is a labor of love over many, many years that these things emerge. And I'm so glad.

23:52 I'm so glad it's out there. And then also thank you for taking the time to come and chat with us about it and share some little insights behind the scenes of the books. I'm so glad that you were able to be here. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. So I'm hoping you didn't.