94 | Herbal Gut Health with Maria Noel Groves

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Welcome to In the Clinic with Camille. My name is Camille Freeman.

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I'm an herbalist and nutritionist, and in this podcast, I share little tips

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and tidbits that might be helpful for other practitioners.

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Today, I'm really excited to bring to you a short interview with someone who

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I suspect needs no introduction, and that is Maria Noel-Groves.

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Maria is a clinical herbalist. She runs Wintergreen Botanicals,

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which is located in New Hampshire, and she does classes, consultations, and writing.

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And in particular she's the author of multiple award-winning best-selling books

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including Body Into Balance, Grow Your Own Herbal Remedies, Herbal Remedies

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for Sleep, and her new book which is Herbal Gut Health and that is the topic

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of our discussion today.

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We're going to put the link to Maria's work at wintergreenbotanicals.com in

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the show notes as well as the link to pre-order her new book if you're listening

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to this before January 2026 and if you're listening to it after January 2026,

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you can purchase a copy and receive it almost right away.

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So without any further ramblings on my part, let's dive into my interview with

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Maria about herbal gut health.

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Hey, I am just so excited to have Maria Noel-Grobes here to do a little interview

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and to talk to us about the latest book that is coming out really soon.

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Maria, can you just tell us, in a nutshell, what is special about this book?

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Sure. And also, of course, thank you so much for having me back.

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It's always an absolute honor. And I love your podcast.

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I think I've listened to all of them, or almost all of them.

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So it's an honor to be here.

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And so in a nutshell, the book, you know, many people might already be familiar

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with my book, Body Into Balance.

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And the digestive chapter was already the biggest chapter in the book.

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And so this book explores that topic, but goes much, much deeper into it.

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So much like we do in Body Into Balance, it's how, you know,

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what is the digestive system?

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How does it work? How does it get out of balance?

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And then what kinds of herbs and lifestyle approaches can we turn to to help

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bring it back into balance?

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But we go much deeper into each aspect of that as well as a lot more into the,

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it's essentially divided in my mind in two major sections.

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And that first section of the herbal and body system part of it is on stimulating

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digestion and enhancing the body's ability to absorb nutrients and have digestive

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juices and healthy motility and all of that.

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And then in the second, you know, kind of big chunk of it is on the gut healing process.

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So soothing and promoting healthy integrity of tissue, especially if there is,

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you know, damage, inflammation, just lack of integrity, leakiness,

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that kind of thing. Yeah.

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Exploring the situations, the patterns, and then our herbs and recipes that

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tend to be really helpful.

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And so those are two of the big components of the book. But we do have a lot

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of overarching concepts towards the beginning.

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And then we dive into other aspects like food allergies and clinical patterns

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of assessment and all sorts of other details there.

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But it does go a lot deeper, I'd say that there's probably at least,

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I have not checked into it, but

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maybe three or four times, if not more content than we get into in the,

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or at least get into in greater detail versus the Body Into Balance book.

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So it was really exciting.

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This is one of the books that I pitched to the publishers because I just feel

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like my thoughts on gut health have evolved quite a bit since I first wrote that book.

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It's such a huge part of my own clinical practice and just at large,

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the world and also in the United States where I mainly practice,

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we see so many people who have disordered digestion and it seems like it's getting

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worse, not better as a general rule.

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And there really isn't much out there currently that explores that,

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especially from an herbal perspective.

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And so I was very excited to have the opportunity to dive in deeper into the

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topic and put all of this together.

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So that's kind of the basic synopsis of what's in there, But it is both a guide for the layperson.

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It's probably a little bit more of like an intermediate, if you will,

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maybe intermediate to a semi-advanced.

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And it also should be a pretty great resource for the practitioner to refer

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to as they're working with things as well.

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So it's a little bit higher level than just an everyday popular press,

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but it is geared towards both those communities.

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Yeah, and I was lucky enough to get an advance copy of the books.

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I've already seen it. And I have to say that the design is gorgeous.

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I think all of your books are beautiful, but this one in particular,

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I think, is so pleasing to just hold and read.

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I'm usually a big e-book fan, but I actually think this one I prefer in hard

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copy because it's so pretty.

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And, you know, one of the things that I do think is nice as a practitioner,

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I so agree that almost everything eventually makes its way back to gut health,

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or at least we need to start there.

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And I find this even after 20 plus years of practice, there's herbs where I'm

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like, oh, yeah, I forgot about, you know, I learned about it and I thought about

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it sort of fell out of favor in my practice.

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And reading books like this and just looking at the ways that you formulate

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or some of the herbs that I just, for whatever reason, haven't been using very

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much lately, have worked their way back into my practice because it resurfaced.

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So it's really fun to get.

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I agree. It feels like it's more than a surface level. And I was able to understand

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rationale that how things were put together in your book.

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That was really helpful for my own practice. I really appreciate that.

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It is funny how we as herbalists, I could hear somebody's top five herbs for

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something and inevitably, at least one, sometimes many, I'll be like,

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wow, I like don't even use that herb or I hardly ever use that herb.

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And with gut health, there are so many options for herbs. So I really focus

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most on the ones that are my favorites that I work with regularly.

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But then I'll see somebody else's list.

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I'm like, oh yeah, I don't use it. I mean, no yarrow's in there but I don't

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work with it that much because I'm allergic to it and even handling it,

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I will have allergic responses to it.

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So it just has never been a big part of my own practice but yet somebody else,

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it might be they're the herbs.

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I'm kind of curious for you, like what, if you don't mind me putting you on

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the spot, like what was the herb or two that you got reacquainted with?

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Well, I mean, there's a lot of them. Even for me, sometimes things as basic as like, oh, calendula.

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I mean, I think of it in a certain light, but then you're like,

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oh, yeah, there is this whole other side to it that's not been part of the way

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that I'm conceptualizing it, even

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though, of course, I was trained and I learned about it in this light.

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But then, you know, we think of it in different ways.

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So that's, for example, just like not that it's not part of my practice,

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but it just resurfaces. and go, yeah, such a lovely, such a lovely addition in so many ways.

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So, okay, this is a relatively short podcast, so how do we really dive into

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your brain for practitioners in terms of this book?

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And one of the things that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about was the

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format of herbs, because we talked about teas in particular for GI health.

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And I wondered if you wanted to say any words about tea as a method of supporting

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gut health versus extracts or capsules or powders or any of the other types

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of things we might be working with.

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Yeah. And I am, you know, as an herbalist, I love tinctures.

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I do occasionally, you know, take or recommend pills and powders.

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But when it comes to gut health, teas really have a huge advantage.

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I mean, we love teas as herbalists in general.

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They're beneficial for so many different concerns. But when it comes to gut

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health, we have a variety of benefits.

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One is that it's very good at extracting pretty much all the constituents that

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we might want to get out of the majority of the digestive support herbs out there.

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I might not do a tea of a really super duper bitter herb because that might

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not be very palatable, but it would still work.

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It just might be so bitter you want to throw up. But for most of our pleasant

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enough tasting herbs and our gut healing herbs, and especially the mucilaginous

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herbs that really emphasize water extract,

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I have seen mucilaginous herbs literally repel alcohol when somebody else decided

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to make a tincture and called me in for support because it had formed this ball

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in the middle of the jar, literally trying to repel all the alcohol around it.

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So mucilage, which is one of our key supportive constituents when it comes to

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soothing and moistening the gut, helping with gut healing and irritations and

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all of that, it really loves water.

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And so tea is a very natural way to extract that. But it also works great for

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aromatics. It works great for many different constituents.

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Another big thing is, especially for somebody who has a digestive system that's

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irritated or inflamed, or they're having a lot of burning-type symptoms,

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and hopefully they already know what it is, they know it's not something that's

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really dangerous that needs to be addressed, and they're just looking at some herbal supports,

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they will often respond very poorly to alcohol extracts, even if they're taking

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the alcohol extract for a completely different reason, like to help with sleep or stress.

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And so while they could possibly take a pill or they could possibly take a glycerin

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extract, when it comes to the herbs that we deliver for gut health.

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Oftentimes they extract even better and deliver really nicely in that water extract.

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And so we can get a lot out of a lot of plants. We can deliver it in a very

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tolerable fashion for folks who have GI irritation or other GI things.

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And we're coming into such contact with it all the way down the pipe.

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So before you even put the tea in your mouth, you're inhaling it.

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And then also while it's in your mouth, you're inhaling the aromas.

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So we'll start to get some benefits for the digestive system right there to really engage it.

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Also engaging the nervous system, which is very important for gut health.

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And then it's coming into contact all the way down the esophagus into the stomach.

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And eventually the digestive system will break down some of those constituents,

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but they still have an impact throughout the whole digestive tract.

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And if you're sipping a nice big pot of tea throughout the day,

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it's a constant exposure versus a quick one-and-done kind of remedy.

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And so that really helps, especially with some of the more long-term chronic kinds of scenarios.

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Yes, I love that. I really love that point about how...

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The difference between sipping on it throughout the day versus,

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oh, I'm going to have a shot of tincture in the morning and the night.

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It's even at the same equivalent dose. I feel like it's a little bit of a different experience.

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I also find tea is just so much more affordable for people.

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I find that a lot of people are underdosing extract and not getting what I consider

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to be a therapeutic range.

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And then you realize like, oh, if you're really trying to get a couple grams

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are more on board of extract, that's pretty pricey. Yes, yes, for sure.

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And also there's that ritual to the tea too.

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There is an intention and a ritual to like making tea,

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especially a loose herb tea, especially one that maybe you actually enjoy a

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little bit in addition to it,

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providing some healing properties that you notice right away and then more that

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build over time that it becomes a really joyful and affirming part of somebody's

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day to be making that tea and saying,

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I'm doing this kind of for my health, and I'm connecting with these plants.

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Yeah, I think that the ritual component of it is underappreciated and,

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Important. It's important, too. So I'm wondering if there are,

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if you have any thoughts on how we as practitioners might work with your book.

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So for example, like you said, it is something that maybe clients would have

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and some of our maybe more engaged or advanced clients might be a great referral

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or reference for them to say, hey, you might want to pick up this book.

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But I also think it's something that practitioners could benefit from having on our shelves.

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And short of sitting down and reading it through top to bottom,

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which is, of course, lovely to do.

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But, you know, once it gets added to the shelf, I see you have your big bookshelf

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behind you and I do mine over there.

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But at what point might a practitioner pull this book off the shelf and be like,

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oh, OK, let me look through here and just see what Maria has to say?

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Well, if they already kind of have the basics down, I'd say that some areas

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where they might really enjoy it as a reference. One is the recipes.

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So there are quite a few recipes in the book, and they're organized with the

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herbs and with the themes.

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And there is a list of the recipes somewhere in the book, so you can see them all at a glance.

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And then there is also towards the end, there are the protocol points,

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if you will, for different common health concerns.

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And then they'll refer back to the other areas of the book for more detail.

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So if you're looking for support for somebody who's dealing with SIBO or reflux

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or, you know, those are all really big topics that you can't really summarize

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in half a page, but it'll give you a couple of the highlights.

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And then from there, you can go to the bigger section for more details.

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Exactly. I feel like sometimes we get stuck in our own little avenues of,

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okay, here's how I might handle IBS or whatever GERD, etc.

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And I find it really is helpful to open up some books and just look through

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and see, oh, okay, here's some other ideas.

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In particular, if you've had a client and you've tried some of your usuals and you're not,

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getting the results that you were thinking you might be getting,

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sometimes you can look through a book like this in particular,

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especially with the different formulas, combinations, recipes,

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or some of the more systems-based approach to like, oh, here's some of the things

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that are going on, and maybe get some ideas beyond what would naturally come to you on your own.

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So I think That's a great suggestion.

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And I will say, too, sorry, also in those profiles there, which can be really

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helpful for the layperson and for maybe like the new-ish clinician who's not

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always on point for red flags.

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With each of those sections, there is a little bit on like, what are some signs and symptoms,

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that somebody should really go to the doctor, giving a little bit of context

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in that for both just being good to get it checked as well as,

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hey, this is potentially something that somebody might need to go to the ER immediately for.

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Because I think sometimes we try to just jump in and do everything with herbs.

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And sometimes we need to take a step back and make sure that there's not something

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more acutely dangerous that needs to be identified or addressed first.

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Yeah, well, that's so funny, because that was what I was going to say,

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too, which is as we wrap up,

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I'm wondering if you could just give a quick overview of, okay,

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here are some of the things that, where in your experience, herbs are really

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wonderful place to at least start.

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And what are some of the things where you're like, you know what,

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let's get at least somebody else on the medical team involved,

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or a little bit more urgent care.

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Can you just give us some examples of things that might fall into those categories?

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Yeah, I'd say first off, if the symptoms are kind of more subtle.

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Just kind of annoying, but not really problematic.

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And if they're responding very well to the herbs and seem to be either resolved

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or resolving promptly, that's usually a pretty good sign.

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But if somebody is taking herbs for something that's kind of even mild to moderate

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and it's just not working or it helps a little but not really and the issue

00:15:47.424 --> 00:15:50.004
is still going on, it's a good idea to get that checked.

00:15:50.004 --> 00:15:54.744
Even something as simple as reflux, which is very common and often very responsive

00:15:54.744 --> 00:15:58.524
to herbs and natural therapies alone, not always, but oftentimes.

00:15:58.824 --> 00:16:03.444
But if it's not being addressed, if it's not going away, that is dangerous.

00:16:03.444 --> 00:16:05.264
It can lead to esophageal cancer.

00:16:05.444 --> 00:16:10.264
We have a friend who passed from that because they had it and the doctors were

00:16:10.264 --> 00:16:14.244
just ignoring that as a symptom, this ongoing reflux.

00:16:14.424 --> 00:16:19.044
And so this is the tricky thing with digestive things is they can be refluxed.

00:16:19.242 --> 00:16:23.102
Not that big of an issue and something you could definitely self-treat for.

00:16:23.362 --> 00:16:30.582
And then sometimes symptoms that are very similar or continuing could actually be quite dangerous.

00:16:30.902 --> 00:16:34.642
Another example would be if somebody's in really severe acute pain.

00:16:34.762 --> 00:16:40.922
Now, certainly gas pain can be not that serious at all and still express pretty

00:16:40.922 --> 00:16:43.382
intensely for some people in certain moments.

00:16:43.382 --> 00:16:49.542
But example that I have from my own sort of family stories is somebody who was

00:16:49.542 --> 00:16:53.902
suddenly in just extreme, extreme pain, but they also like couldn't pass gas.

00:16:54.302 --> 00:16:57.882
Couldn't have a bowel movement. They were, you know, really nauseous and vomiting.

00:16:58.102 --> 00:17:01.302
Like this person ended up having a bowel obstruction. It was somebody who already

00:17:01.302 --> 00:17:06.742
had Crohn's disease and had a tendency because of the way that their colon had

00:17:06.742 --> 00:17:11.322
mutated from everything from the disease to get bowel obstructions really easily.

00:17:11.322 --> 00:17:15.402
And so that's not the time to go pick up a cup of dandelion tea and say,

00:17:15.542 --> 00:17:17.002
oh, bitters will help my bowels move.

00:17:17.142 --> 00:17:20.022
Like that person needed to go to the hospital immediately.

00:17:20.842 --> 00:17:26.622
Bleeding, there's a lot of bleeding. Ulcers, you know, they may need to have

00:17:26.622 --> 00:17:30.002
conventional treatment because those can also sometimes get dangerous,

00:17:30.002 --> 00:17:33.002
even if they are also potentially responsive to herbs.

00:17:33.002 --> 00:17:38.742
So, you know, I know Jim McDonald has some saying like, there's a lot of blood.

00:17:38.942 --> 00:17:42.682
It's probably a good idea to go get that checked. You know, it's not like normal

00:17:42.682 --> 00:17:44.302
menses or something like that.

00:17:44.562 --> 00:17:48.242
Hormones are coming out of places it shouldn't come out of. It's probably good to check the doctor.

00:17:48.742 --> 00:17:52.642
Fevers, especially when they're associated with digestive things that aren't

00:17:52.642 --> 00:17:57.302
just a basic, you know, stomach flu, probably a good idea to get checked.

00:17:57.642 --> 00:18:02.142
So there are a lot of different scenarios that can be pretty helpful there.

00:18:02.142 --> 00:18:03.962
That is not an exhaustive list.

00:18:04.322 --> 00:18:08.102
So I do cover quite a bit of that throughout the book in general,

00:18:08.102 --> 00:18:10.582
but especially when we get into specific health concerns.

00:18:11.735 --> 00:18:16.855
Yeah. And I, you know, I'm always a big fan of saying, if there's any doubt,

00:18:17.155 --> 00:18:21.875
it makes sense to just check in with a PCP or another provider.

00:18:21.875 --> 00:18:26.035
And maybe they'll just say, oh, yeah, nothing we can do about it,

00:18:26.115 --> 00:18:28.115
but we've ruled out anything serious.

00:18:28.295 --> 00:18:34.395
And then great, you can carry on with your herbal recommendations and move forward with that.

00:18:34.495 --> 00:18:37.075
But sometimes it's nice just to have that peace of mind of like,

00:18:37.155 --> 00:18:40.415
OK, well, we've ruled out anything more serious.

00:18:40.415 --> 00:18:45.955
And a lot of the things you're talking about, too, we can usually continue on

00:18:45.955 --> 00:18:49.815
with herbs, even if people do need some other types of care as well. Yes.

00:18:50.195 --> 00:18:55.035
Yeah. It's always a good way to know what you're dealing with and to just get things checked out.

00:18:55.135 --> 00:18:58.435
And a lot of times the doctors will just say, you know, they'll run a bunch

00:18:58.435 --> 00:19:00.155
of tests and be like, yeah, we don't know.

00:19:00.715 --> 00:19:03.655
Here's a proton pump inhibitor. And if they give you that answer,

00:19:03.955 --> 00:19:08.255
then, you know, probably it's safe to start seeking out holistic approaches

00:19:08.255 --> 00:19:11.695
with, you know, whether you're self-treating or you're going and working with

00:19:11.695 --> 00:19:16.195
a practitioner or in this case, a lot of folks here are doing the practitioner work themselves.

00:19:16.855 --> 00:19:21.815
So, yeah, it really, it can be really tricky, but it's good to get the colonoscopy,

00:19:21.815 --> 00:19:27.355
to get the check, to just make sure there's not something like cancer or inflammatory

00:19:27.355 --> 00:19:31.355
bowel disease or a need for surgery or something.

00:19:32.695 --> 00:19:35.455
Pathogen, you know, some kind of parasite that needs to be dealt with.

00:19:35.655 --> 00:19:38.795
I'm not big into parasites, but sometimes, you know, people go to other countries

00:19:38.795 --> 00:19:44.355
and they pick up a parasite and they may, of course, some conventional treatment might be appropriate.

00:19:45.275 --> 00:19:48.615
It has absolutely happened to people in my practice, for sure.

00:19:49.655 --> 00:19:57.235
So, y'all, the book comes out on the 13th of January. You can pre-order it. And I have to say that,

00:19:58.249 --> 00:20:03.549
When you think about the time and effort and research that goes into a book

00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:08.789
like this, you know, not to mention just your time writing the book,

00:20:08.869 --> 00:20:12.949
but also the many years of clinical practice that inform it and your own education.

00:20:12.949 --> 00:20:16.069
And then all of the editing and everything.

00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:20.989
It is in some ways just a miracle that people can buy this book for such an

00:20:20.989 --> 00:20:23.629
affordable price because it's just like,

00:20:24.229 --> 00:20:29.489
there's so much education to be had in a book like this, especially for people

00:20:29.489 --> 00:20:34.189
who want to refresh or maybe nutritionists who are looking to get started with

00:20:34.189 --> 00:20:35.669
herbs or dive a little bit deeper.

00:20:35.829 --> 00:20:40.629
They feel like this is an excellent book for that category of folks and for

00:20:40.629 --> 00:20:45.729
our herbalists who want to get a little bit more up to date or dive into maybe

00:20:45.729 --> 00:20:46.909
there's certain topics in the

00:20:46.909 --> 00:20:51.109
book that you didn't fully cover in your training or that you refresh on.

00:20:51.329 --> 00:20:54.069
So anyway, I encourage people to get a copy. And like I said,

00:20:54.189 --> 00:20:57.349
normally I'm like ebook, hard book, whatever, but this one is so pretty.

00:20:57.889 --> 00:21:02.529
I'm just going to put a little plug in for the hard copy just in case anybody wants my opinion.

00:21:04.129 --> 00:21:08.329
So Maria, I know the book can be ordered wherever. It's in all the places.

00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:12.829
But do you want to say anything else about your classes for the upcoming year?

00:21:13.109 --> 00:21:16.529
If people want to continue learning with you and the book isn't enough,

00:21:16.569 --> 00:21:20.229
or they want to learn about different topics, how can they do that?

00:21:20.709 --> 00:21:25.489
Sure. And I do want to give a shout out as well to Story Publishing team because

00:21:25.489 --> 00:21:27.509
they are why the book is so beautiful.

00:21:27.749 --> 00:21:31.989
But that is why I work with them is because they're so great at making beautiful,

00:21:32.249 --> 00:21:34.609
polished, and affordable books.

00:21:34.789 --> 00:21:37.909
And so that's one of the things I really love about working with that team and

00:21:37.909 --> 00:21:40.869
also my teachers because, you know, a lot of this comes through my own experience,

00:21:41.049 --> 00:21:44.409
but it also comes through teachers and research and all of that as well.

00:21:44.549 --> 00:21:48.649
But as far as classes, I do a couple different series. So I have my home herbalist

00:21:48.649 --> 00:21:52.409
series that I run live stream every year. That's just kind of the foundational.

00:21:52.989 --> 00:21:56.909
And I do periodically an intermediate beyond the home herbalist series.

00:21:57.358 --> 00:22:01.218
Those are available on demand also anytime, but probably your listeners will

00:22:01.218 --> 00:22:05.178
be more interested in my advanced series. And what I've been doing lately is

00:22:05.178 --> 00:22:12.278
I have the full advanced series available on demand, and then I'll focus in on a module each year.

00:22:12.578 --> 00:22:15.698
Kind of got that inspiration from your model, but different topics.

00:22:16.038 --> 00:22:20.758
And so this year in 2026, so I guess next year or when we're recording this,

00:22:20.918 --> 00:22:25.298
but in 2026, I'm going to be focusing in on clinical and assessment skills.

00:22:25.298 --> 00:22:30.538
And I'm still putting together the lineup, but it should be releasing also around

00:22:30.538 --> 00:22:34.778
January for registration and happening in like spring and fall,

00:22:34.998 --> 00:22:36.278
most likely via live stream.

00:22:36.698 --> 00:22:40.858
And that is going to be talking about, you know, just clinical assessment skills

00:22:40.858 --> 00:22:45.518
as well as things like reading lab work and or interpreting,

00:22:45.758 --> 00:22:49.338
you know, we can't diagnose, but getting clues for patterns from lab work.

00:22:49.338 --> 00:22:51.498
We'll have some really great guest teachers as well.

00:22:51.678 --> 00:22:55.358
We'll be looking at signs of the body, signs of the fingernails,

00:22:55.758 --> 00:23:00.498
looking at tongue assessment, and all of that kind of concept,

00:23:00.498 --> 00:23:05.658
as well as working with complicated clients, some of our more unusual,

00:23:05.658 --> 00:23:09.338
complicated health concerns that often walk into herbalist stores,

00:23:09.718 --> 00:23:12.578
and different ways to approach that. And so I'm super excited.

00:23:12.898 --> 00:23:16.498
I'll be nailing down guest speakers pretty soon. And so it'll be a combination

00:23:16.498 --> 00:23:20.658
of some classes taught by me and some classes taught by other colleagues throughout

00:23:20.658 --> 00:23:22.978
the community. So that should be a lot of fun.

00:23:23.118 --> 00:23:26.518
And the information will be forthcoming around January for that.

00:23:26.638 --> 00:23:30.558
So folks can sign up on my mailing list if they want to or just check back in

00:23:30.558 --> 00:23:35.218
on my website. And both of those are available through wintergreenbotanicals.com.

00:23:36.118 --> 00:23:40.118
Great. And we will put that as well as to the book in the show notes in case

00:23:40.118 --> 00:23:41.338
that makes it easier for people.

00:23:42.496 --> 00:23:45.656
All right. Well, Maria, first of all, thank you so much for writing this book,

00:23:45.676 --> 00:23:52.276
because I know it is a labor of love over many, many years that these things emerge. And I'm so glad.

00:23:52.916 --> 00:23:55.576
I'm so glad it's out there. And then also thank you for taking the time to come

00:23:55.576 --> 00:24:00.456
and chat with us about it and share some little insights behind the scenes of the books.

00:24:00.516 --> 00:24:04.076
I'm so glad that you were able to be here. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me.

00:24:05.056 --> 00:24:06.336
So I'm hoping you didn't.